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their loved ones were killed for what they stood for. radical islam is the most transformational issue i have dealt with in my military service. . >> thank you for the stirring
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statement. we are honored to have a grand townsend with us, former assistant to the president for homeland security and counter- terrorism. we are really grateful to have you here to put this case into the context of your experience in the field of counter- terrorism. please, proceed. >> thank you. it is really a privilege for me to be here today. after more than 20 years in the government, most as a prosecutor, the one thing i think we know for sure is that things always look clearer of looking back. -- then when you are in the heat of battle. as you well understand, i caution the american people to remember that imperfect knowledge in the heat of the battle and investigation often
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results in less than perfect judgments and knowledge. i applaud the effort of the -- i ask that we find the effort to keep to these actions. i have conducted many such reviews in my time in government. probably the most well-known was the katrina lessons learned. in the wake of a national strategy, wally typically look for single point of failure, the failures tend to be systemic weaknesses and failures. the importance of your work and i define these so we can fix them. -- and identifying these so we can fix them. when we look at this incident, without knowing all of the facts, we come away with many questions. i break them down into three
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distinct areas. first, a collection, law- enforcement, and the investigation -- and third, the military. let me start with collection. wally must rely on public report, -- while we must rely on a public report, lawfully intercepted investigations -- the intelligence community identified less than two dozen communications pulled from this unrelated investigation that had more than 20,000 communications. i'm a say to you that that is an extraordinary accomplishment on behalf of the fbi and when not have occurred prior to 9/11. suggest a more capable fbi determined to protect us. that is to be commended.
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i look at the law enforcement investigations. to evaluate that, and it is difficult without understanding several things first, the content of the communications. they remain classified in the ongoing investigation. second, when the investigators looked at the communications, what did they look at them against? what information did they have access to at the time they evaluated the communications? third, once they had the information and made a judgment whether we agree or not, what did they do to share that information with individuals who could have taken action outside of a law enforcement context? let me start with content. while i cannot speak to the specific content of his communications, here is what we do now from the 9/11 commission
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report. he was in san diego. at that same moscow word to of the 9/11 hijackers. in 2001, he went to the mosque in northern virginia. it is the same mosque with the same two hijackers from 9/11. his phone number is discovered in an apartment he has been the sick -- apartment. he has been the subject of investigation in 2002. he is well known to the international counter-terrorism community.
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the defense criminal investigative service was a part of that review. they looked at major hassan's person now file. what was in that file? were they there? were they considered? based on the judgment that was made on it, it raises some question of whether not that information made it into the personnel file that the jttf had access to. if it was not there, we must ask ourselves why. what information was shared? i can tell you from my experience, it will dictate what
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rules apply in terms of information sharing. there are two sets of rules that apply. this seems to be complicated. if the information in this communications were pursuant to the foreign intelligence surveillance, it typically. cannot recall thinking back on a time when the court did not grant such permission. that is a legal restriction on the sharing. the second set of rules is a memorandum of understanding that the fbi is into.
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it is not to be shared with their home agencies without the permission of the jttf. that process can be gotten. there is not a reason not to have it. did the dod as for that to be shared? -- asked for that to be shared? we need to know the answer. there is something that offends me as suggesting it was on the part of the department of defense. if they felt they did not have the authority, another federal agency could whether it lives on personnel or other reasons.
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in the end, why was major hassan -- in the wake of the review, did they interviewed him? if they did not lead him to be a threat, then why did they go and interview him? if you did not want to interview him, why did you interview his colleagues where the information that was not in the file it discovered? there are three typical responses to those questions. first is the protection of sources. they would not want to reveal where they got this. i would suggest to the committee that there are ways around that concern to mass the method by which you did that collection. second, i worry about a sense of political correctness.
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we very much respect and rely on the vast majority of law- abiding muslims. we have done tremendous cultural training and said the federal government law enforcement agencies -- inside the federal government law enforcement agencies. there is the fbi domestic and asian opera -- domestic investigation operational guidelines. they are updated annually. it has been suggested they would not have interviewed him because they are discouraged. when we did get the military, we must look at this important
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aspect. we have to know whether or not if there is a method by which the derogatory information made its way into a major hasan's personnel file. even if the military got the information's, they have the process and procedures in place to assure that it not fall through the cracks. the mets have adequate resources and training with in the military -- they must have adequate resources and training with in the military to address this issue. they need resources to root out the potential criminal, spies, and terrorists. it is important that we assure
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ourselves and we address these issues, because it is at the core of our obligation to protect our service members and their families. we ask much of them. we owe them an honest look. it is easy to offer questions and opinions will we are unburdened by the fact. i'm not here to second-guess the public servant who investigated this case but to offer how we might improve the system and better protect our men and women in uniform. >> i really appreciate the spirit and content of your testimony, which i think will be both informative and helpful as we go forward. thank you for bringing your experience. -- the next witness is with the intelligence division of new york city's police department.
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he has testified before the committee before about a seminal report that he co-authored for the nypd. the nypd has a remarkable look at a focus on home from terrorism. we are very grateful that you have returned to the committee and we welcome your testimony at this time. >> in october of 2007, i testified before this committee about the findings of a recent study titled along " radicalization in the west, a homegrown threat."
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this threat has not materialized in the night states. for the past comments, we did for the past 12 months, they have uncovered a cost -- in the past 12 months, they have uncovered a host of radicals. it indicates that radicalization of violence are taking place in the united states. one year ago, the department of homeland security issued a warning lead to an al qaeda plot against a railroad and commuter network. it linked to a new yorker who radicalized the violence around new york city before travelling to pakistan to seek out an opportunity to court is a paid in violent issue had -- violent
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jihad. four men were outside a community center in riverdale. they were radicalized in the united states. july 2009, seven men were arrested by authorities in north carolina. they possess weapons and 27,000 rounds of ammunition with plans to attack the marine base in virginia. they were inspired by al qaeda and radicalize in the united states. this past september, a man was arrested as part of an al qaeda conspiracy to attack locations in new york city with hydrogen peroxide based explosives. it was one of the most serious plot sense of 9/11. he lived in the united stated
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during his formative years before departing for pakistan. later that same september, a 21- year-old from new york's was indicted for conspiracy to commit murder abroad in support for foreign terrorism. he was arrested in kosovo. he wanted to take up arms against perceived enemies of islam, meaning american troops. he was also radicalized in the united states. there are more. in boston, a 26-year old in graduate of a massachusetts college of pharmacy was arrested last month. he was charged with conspiring to attack civilians at a shopping mall in the night state as well as to members of the executive branch of the federal government. he was radicalized in the united states. at least 15 men have radicalized
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in minneapolis. they have left the united states to fight in somalia. they joined a terrorist group associated with al qaeda based in somalia. our fear is what happens when they return tb united states -- to the united states. this pass september, -- this past of timbeseptember, an offie building was targeted. in springfield, at a federal building was targeted. finally, there was a recent arrest of two chicagoans would direct links to a group that was responsible for the november 2008 mumbai terrorist attacks.
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they seem to be plotting against targets. they appear to have been radicalized in the united states. given the evidence, one must conclude the radicalization of violence is occurring in the united states. given what seems to be a pattern of individuals, the nypd has invested a substantial effort in order to assess the quantity of a process that warrants the radicalization traject tree -- trajectory. it is consistent with the model from the 2007 nypd report that suggested four phases. driving this process is the proliferation of al qaeda ideology intertwined with real
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political grievances in a war against islam and provides justification to young men with an remarkable background to pursue violent extremists and. -- extremism. phase one, pre-radicalization. it is the point of origin for individuals before they progress. based on the cases, individuals are vulnerable to ratification and tend to be male muslims between the age of 15 and 35 from varied backgrounds. cigna begin proportions come from middle-class backgrounds. -- significant proportions come from middle-class backgrounds. the vast majority of individuals do not start out as religiously observant or knowledgeable.
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phase two, but dedication. it is the phase where individuals begin to explore the more literal interpretation of islam, gradually gravitating away from their old identity and beginning to explore ideology. the trigger for the religion is a catalyst of crisis. it challenges the individuals beliefs and forces them to reconsider their previous outlook and world view. phase three, indoctrination. it is the phase where individuals intensified the believe, adopt the extremist ideology, and concludes without question that they must further the case. that action is violence. it justifies, legitimizes, and
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encourages violence against anything un-islamic including the west and its allies. the signatures associated with this phase including becoming an active participant in the group, becoming increasingly isolated from one's life. gradually coming individuals begin to isolate themselves from secular society. they believe the world is divided between believers and infidels, everyone else. phase four, do have is asian -- jidahization. this is where they participate in jihad and dedicate themselves as warriors. they will seek to travel abroad to participate in the film of a jihad in afghanistan, pakistan, somalia, or iraq.
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frequently, group members participate in outdoor out of his campaign, paint ball, with the purpose of bonding. potential targets are chosen, surveillance begins. the group when agonizes -- weaponizes the components. additional research has highlighted new findings. the most important is that the internet has become a more viable venue. this was highlighted by a 2008 report from this committee. "the use of the internet by al qaeda and other violent extremist groups has expanded the threat to our homeland. no longer is it just from
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abroad. the threat is from within." in 2007, we discussed the concept of the spiritual sanctuary, an individual who provides religious justification for violence and extremism. now have a new catalyst, the virtual spiritual sanctuary. what he is not the only onetheal-awlaki is an example of this concept. he had the ability to translate literature that promoted violent jihad in english.
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not only al-awlaki been in a plot against fort dix in new jersey, his tapes were played for all of those who attended the toronto training camps in the winter of 2005. they plotted to explode 3 tons of ammonium nitrate in the fall of 2006. in recent years, u.s. authorities have been courted -- uncovered significant numbers of individuals who are intent on committing violent jihadist in the united states or abroad. radicalization is taking place in the united states today. in the past year, there have been six cases and to come and sit of traveling abroad, i carry out violence -- who, instead of
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traveling abroad, decided to play out violence there. the al qaeda threat to the u.s. homeland is no longer limited to the al qaeda core. it is decentralized and consist of three primary elements, al qaeda corp., al qaeda allies, and others who began to target the west -- most recently, it has no operational relationship with al qaeda. it consists of individuals rather allies -- radicalized in the west. thank you. >> thank you. i have two quick comments. the testimony that you gave a summary of the various homegrown terrorist plots that have been formed in stopped in the last
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year reminds us that, though we are in an unconditional war with the extremists who attacked as on 9/11, it has increasingly come within our borders. it started here officially, even though it was coming at this before, 9/11. this pattern of homegrown radicalization is a very sick man in the front. -- is a very disturbing front of most of these plots -- front. most of these plots have been stopped. i'm going to ask you to relate this schematic framework that you have of the phases of radicalization be somewhat been
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know about hasan from sources. our next witness is the former deputy to the assistant. he comes to us today as senior adviser at the center for strategic and international studies. thank you for being here. >> thank you. plessy the for the opportunity -- thank you for the operation to ea -- opportunity to testify today. i ask that this be entered in the record. >> so ordered. >> my testimony addresses the implications of the fort hood attacked, including the terrorist threat to our military. the challenges of dealing with the lone wolf insider threat and
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the increasing problems of radicalization. the horrific event at fort hood was shocking not only -- because it occurred in our own country on a major military base and an army officers whose job was to care for them and lobbying. it has raised questions about why such an event happened and whether authorities could have prevented such an attack and the national security implications of this incident moving forward. unlike any event since 9/11, it has filled discussion about violent extremist ideology in our midst. it is premature to answer these questions completely or make judgments without more information about the events and the alleged perpetrator. there may have been a failure to connect the dots or a failure to adopt a late what the document.
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there may have been a mixture of motives or factors that play in the alleged perpetrators mind. what makes it a case to appears to a been harder, is that major hasan allegedly acted alone and may have used medical research to hide his own medical turmoil. this and then follows a line of attacks against military personnel in separate instances, including a murder at a recruitment center in little rock, an act of fratricide in little rock, and one in kuwait. they occurred in the wake of several destructive terrorist plots in the u.s.. are we facing a new wave of terrorism driven apart by self- radicalization? the fbi recently disrupted a
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series of plot and arrested potential terrorists. some of the plots were homegrown and more local in nature. at least two of them appeared to have a series international connections. some plots like the one to bring down a military plane were aimed directly at our military here at home. even with all these events occurring, we must be careful not to draw a final conclusion about how it fits into a series of arrests and incident and whether there is a recognizable pattern that ties together. i think it is important to recognize the constant threat to our military from terrorist attacks. from the attacks at the marine
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barracks in beirut, the destruction of khobar towers in saudi arabia, the attack on the uss cole in 2000, terrorists have purposely targeted u.s. military installations here and abroad. military bases provide the most visible and legitimate target that help them justify their actions by tying their tax directly to proceed attacks on muslims by the u.s. military. the attacks on our military will continue. they will grow more likely over time. the military presence abroad will remain a visible target for enemies. at home, violent radicals will see the military as an of this -- obvious and legitimate target. the problem in this case of ford
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could seems not to have come from the outside but from within. based on publicly available information, seems likely that the perpetrator acted alone. unlike a lone wolf, he used his privilege role as an insider, officer, dr., to attack the military and murder his fellow searchers. the lone wolf is the most challenging and difficult for the law and forcing communities. the more a terrorist is interacting capabilities, the more likely that the plot can be prevented. the u.s. government foreign partners have uncovered a variety of cell since 9/11 and prevented numerous attacks. if there is no expression of violent tendencies, it is difficult not only for authorities, but four friends, colleagues, in neighborhoods to
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determine that a violent threat is looming. law enforcement is limited in the ability to follow up without indications of directly suspicious or criminal behavior. they do in one murder at the -- the murder in little rock was a reminder of this. it may be that we will not see a smoking gun that revealed his true motivations and signaled an intent to resort to violence by other violent -- violence. there will likely be clues that will appear to point to a pack of violence. a key question is whether those points were seen and evaluate it properly. the most troubling revealed today involves suspicious
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communications between major hasan andal-awlaki. he is a cleric with ties to the 9/11 hijackers. al-awlaki is well known to the u.s. government. what may have made these communications more difficult to diagnose is that the alleged perpetrators own doubts and complex about serving in the military may have been masked by the own medical research about the mind of muslims searchers. the threat of an american lone wolf crews to be the most of the full problem for u.s. law enforcement. even more so when they are acting from the inside. there has become a heightened
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debate posed by the extremism. the west is at war with islam and the muslims must unite to fight the united states in defense of fellow muslims has widespread appeal. this is a simple narrative that helps explain world events and local grievances. it is widely believed in many corridors of the world. it acts as a siren song for troubled individuals. al qaeda takes full advantage of this ideology. bin laden has a gimmick crafted message is attractive to american audiences -- have directly crafted messages attractive to american audiences. though this is inherently
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violent, it is not illegal to believe in or the spouse is. many views throughout the world, given our first amendment protection, cannot be considered illegal. causality [unintelligible] advocacy of violence is not prosecutable under u.s. law. there are many radical laws like -- people like al-awlaki he incited violence under u.s. law. the u.s. has largely been immune from the larger economic problems of muslin citizen integration and the intended problems of radicalization. much of this can be contributed to the integration into society as americans and to the common ideals of the american dream.
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the danger of this ideology is that more individuals will fall prey to radicalization. this is why i think american citizens and the muslims have a special responsibility not to play into the hands of the violent extremists and their ideology. there cannot be a divide in our society. reaction to the horrors of fort hood has been measured and civil. muslim americans have a special responsibility. regardless of the motivations of the perpetrator, said the attack at fort hood is an important time for muslim americans to stand up against this ideology that is so deadly and destructive. this involves more than just condemnation but an active participation in the debate about how to isolate and displace the allure of this fall's ideology, especially in
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the united states. i applaud the executive director of the muslim public affairs council has issued a call to a fellow muslim americans. the call the fort hood attacked a defining moment for muslim americans. he concluded the following. we as muslim americans are the answer to this frightening phenomenon. we own our own destiny. it is fundamentally intertwined with our nation's destiny. terrorism will be defeated with our work on the front line, not on the battlefield but in our mosques and community centers. we are acting on the guiding principles of islam and america. i think it is our leaders who must rise up to face down the ideology that is aimed to show division in our society. i think it'll be critical to ensure that information was
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shared and evaluate it properly. i think it will be important to preserve the necessary tools to law enforcement in the intelligence committee that will allow them to uncover data points related to extremist terrorism. i think the two provisions will include the roving wiretap provision and business record authority -- should be renewed. it may prevented the effective use of these techniques by law enforcement the de i think congress -- enforcement. i think congress should fully support and implement it. the demonstration should look at existing laws to determine
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whether more aggressive use would be appropriate against those providing a logical support to loan will terrorists in violent extremists. >> is easily. if you can come to a -- excuse me. if you can please come to a close. the number of committee members here. we want to get into the questions. but let me conclude with a couple of the key questions that i think not only build on the questions that have been raised, the point to forward-looking domitian's. -- informations. it affected the ability to see the collective body of the information about h informationasan. are there -- about a major hasan. should they be reviewed? are there common warning signs in the fort hood tried key that
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can be used to prevent future attacks? are there realistic expectations about preventing a lone wolf attacks? are there relevant laws and authorities in place to allow authorities to get in front of such a threat? how much preventing goes beyond the throttle government? -- federal government? how do we strike the balance? should there be a more formal mechanism for enlisting muslim americans to empower them to take on violent ideology and allow federal and tribal authorities the ability to more actively address the concerns? with that, i will be happy to answer any questions. >> thank you for the helpful testimony our last -- testimony.
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our last witness is brian jenkins. he was involved in the study of terrorism before most people focus on the concept. -- and a long time before we ended up in a war. he was last before the committee in january, testifying on the mumbai attacks of last met november -- last november. >> thank you. thank you for inviting me to talk about this event. this was given to me in memory of those who were killed on 9/11. i am wearing it out of respect for those who were killed and wounded at fort hood. when i testified before this committee last the january in
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mumbai, you may recall that in response to the question could a mumbai style attack have been in the united states -- i said, it could. the difference lies in the scale of events. the recruiting and training of 10 suicide attackers was beyond anything that we had seen in any of the conspiracies and covered thus far since 9/11. we had seen lone gunman, shooters who motivated -- who were motivated by political cause and run aamok. there were attackers armed with a readily available weapons. i mention that now because the
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threat we face is not so much one of organizations penetrating the united states as it is the spread of ideology and models of behavior pitta that is what we are talking about here, models -- models of behavior. that is what we are talking about here. at a glance, major hasan's rampage looks a lot like what used to be called "going postal." it is a deepening sense of personal grief culminating in a homicidal rampaged directed against co-workers and fellow soldiers. for hasan, going "jihad" shows
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problems going into a deadly fanaticism. we must wait for a full inquiry to understand his motives, preparation, objectives, but on the basis of what has been reported in the news media, we clearly have a troubled man who engaged himself with extremist ideology by way of the interstate the internet that reinforced his own anger, leaving him to kill. the markers on his path to the november 5 claims to [unintelligible] it some of the posts are missing, it is because of the
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correspondents like al-awlaki. his journey may have been largely an interior one. i mentioned signposts. there seem to have been some that prompts the question, could it have been prevented? i am going to join the other members of the panel here and say that it is premature for me on the basis of what we know now to make that judgment. experience has taught me to be exceptionally cautious in this domain. seen through a rear view mirror, a lot of these seem tantalizing if only we have been able to connect the dots. sometimes the over estimate what is notable, especially in the realm of human behavior. we are not good at predicting
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human violence. we do not have an extra for a man's soul. -- x-ray for a man's soul. this is an issue of self fragile position -- self radicalization. mutt derives from -- much to rise from groups. it lies at the edge of our knowledge. it implies the capabilities of psychology and radicalization very. it to be useful to explore what we should be looking for.
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the nature of the conflicts we confront today creates exceptional challenges to member of our armed forces. it is showing up in a form of breakdowns, suicide, and sometimes homicide's but a this is by no mind -- stood rigid, size. this by no means is uses his axe. -- acts. it is growing every year since 9/11.
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there is a declining quality of these actions we envision an army of terrorist operatives united in common cause but not connected organizationally. it is difficult to destroy leadership. that is ultimately a weakness. outside of pakistan and afghanistan, the leaders can do little other than exhort others to violence. what it does offer is the opportunity for terrorist leaders to assert ownership of
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just about every homicidal maniac on the planet. it is not surprising that the internet group was quick to praise the fort hood slayings as another deal had success. since 9/11, authorities in new york have uncovered nearly 30 plot attacks in the net is days. it would have resulted in a successful terrorist attacks. i do remind you that very little separates the ambitions of terrorist wannabes from deadly terrorist assaults. the essential ingredient is intense. that is what we are talking about. it remains an asset -- intelligence information remains important.
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we have had eight plots discover this year. this is much harder than previous years. there appears to become an inspiration. there is no organizational ordination between events. this is individual actions -- these are individual actions. six of the plot since 9/11 have been directed against american soldiers are military facilities. it is more legitimate than attacking civilians. the majority of the plot were aimed simply at causing mass civilian casualties', especially
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in public transportation been used. what does this tell us about the radicalization in america? we have to be careful about over reaction. we have about 100 individuals that were arrested for terrorism related crimes. almost all of them were recruited locally. it does show that radicalization and recruitment to terrorism is occurring in the united states and is a security concern. it has yielded very few recruits. the velocity of significant tax -- a tax [unintelligible] they are unsympathetic to jihadist appeals.
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what authorities are going to confront our tiny conspiracies or the actions of individuals which are always going to be hard to predict in a free society. but thank you very much. excellent background. aslan context. you are right. the number of muslim americans involved in this plot are quite small. a small number of people can do terrible harm. it is important to put the small number into context of the larger muslim american community, which is not any part of this. we will have a seven minute rounds of questions with members of the committee. there was some commentary that this was an unstable person, a person punish us.
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this was not a jihadist act or a terrorist attack, some like to say. the comment on that on your prepared testimony. i want to draw you out on a. my conclusion is that the existence of mental stress does not mean that the act carried out is not jihadist for terrorists. >> these are not small chili -- mutually exclusive categories. we have individuals who are terrorists who were attracted to these extremist ideology is because of their own -- ideology's because of their own personal discontent. terrorism does not attract the well adjusted.
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>> absolutely. >> what happens is you do have individuals who are angry at something. it resonates and reinforces and channels them down a path toward a particular action. if we find that there are many aspects for his personality that are troublesome, that is not as good his act from being properly labeled, an act of terrorism. but -- >> in this case we have
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to view it in the context of what it means to be in the united states military. i wonder if he can help us understand that a bit, particularly in light of the concerns that those who have an -- those who have expressed about concerns about being politically correct. this is a soldier had a right to say what everyone to say without consequences? >> absolutely not. free speech is an integral part of the right of americans, but in the united states military, the mission comes first. to be able to form that mission you need collegian and good order.
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-- cohesion and good order. they can be council and rehabilitated for it. if there is an unwillingness to change our commitment to be believed, we separate it. all of this is short of any criminal behavior. a military unit cannot function and perform its mission under considerable stress. this speech aggravates other members of the team. it polarizes the unit.
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it differentiates people in the unit. it forces them to take sides. regardless of their sensibilities, the order and morale of the unit takes priority over the sensibilities. that is the reality of the military and its mission and what the american people are holding as accountable for. >> what is the responsibility of an individual's shoulder -- individual soldier who hears an individual soldier express political views he deems extremist? at fort bragg there were white supremacist views. what we are worried here in our islamic views. what is the chain of command for
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a soldier? >> the members of the team have an obligation to identify to the chain of command any of this type of extreme is behavior, writer, etc. that is one of the problems we had at fort bragg. it was being tolerated by the soldiers and by the immediate chain of command to a certain degree. it is unclear in my mind that we have in the military today clear and specific guidelines as to what is jihadist extremist behavior. how you identified this behavior? how is it manifest itself? i think it is one of the things that the investigation will determine. i think the department of defense will more than likely have to issue

Nancy Grace
HLN November 19, 2009 10:00pm-11:00pm EST

News/Business. Current trials and legal issues.

TOPIC FREQUENCY United States 16, U.s. 11, Us 6, Islam 5, Mumbai 4, Pakistan 4, Fbi 4, Somalia 3, Hasan 3, America 2, Bragg 2, New York 2, Afghanistan 2, Dr. 1, North Carolina 1, Etc. 1, Aslan 1, Townsend 1, Jidahization 1, Brian Jenkins 1
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